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Managing Upward: Strategies for Succeeding With Your Boss
The Allure Of Toxic Leaders: Why We Follow Destructive Bosses And Corrupt Politicians--and How We Can Survive Them
The Bully at Work: What You Can Do to Stop the Hurt and Reclaim Your Dignity on the Job
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Lack of employee loyalty to the company?
Posted by: emarie
Date: 12/31/2006 1:41:46 PM
You read in many business journals how employees today simply do not have the loyalty of our parents' generation, where many employees spent their entire career with a company. But I think the problem is the other way around. I think companies view us as "resources," like a good copy machine or something, and presume loyalty where none has been earned, respect even when they treat you with disresepect. The disparity between what CEOs earn and the average worker earns in corporate America is staggering! Google this: it compares the US to other countries and we have, by FAR, the biggeest distance between worker salaries and administrative salaries. It's offensive and it's vulgar. How can they expect loyalty when we get almost no raises and low salaries with lousy benefits, and they always hang the threat of termination over our heads if we don't hop to their song. They are insulting, mean, incompetent, greedy...they have lost a sense of a worker as a human being, so even if we make a mistake they bully instead of guiding. Workers, in turn, jump ship faster and more often because they are being treated poorly, NOT for the Almighty Dollar. If a job paid a fair wage and benefits, honored vacation and family times, was, in short, humanistic, and was a happy place to work, I could NOT be seduced away with money. I would feel loyal to people who have been good to me and I would work so hard for them. Generally, I think, all the people here LOVE to work, but we are being brutalized by an economic climate that encourages this abuse. If they think we are disloyal, they should be told that it is the emotional equivalent of the trickle down effect, and they are engaged in voodoo management.
| Reply from: |
goodboss |
| Date: |
12/31/2006 6:08:00 PM |
| Reply: |
In my experience, companies don't expect any particular loyalty from their employees these days - or any other days, for that matter. Companies expect employees to work to a certain standard for the money they pay those employees - and that's it. If employees don't like something about the companies they work for, they may leave and work elsewhere. Employment is a straight business deal - I do a job of work for a company and in return for that job of work, the company gives me some money. Period. People who think companies should be providing them with something more than a straight business deal are misleading themselves - and always have been...it was never this way. (In fact, anyone who knows anything at all about the history of labour-management relations will tell you that companies give 'way more non-monetary stuff to their employees now than they ever did in the past.) In other words, there's no such thing as "the good old days" in employment relationships. I have been an employee for 30 years now and I've never ever fooled myself into thinking that my companies ever felt any particular loyalty to me, nor have I suffered the delusion that I should feel any particular loyalty to the companies I work for (or that they expect any such loyalty from me). I get money from the companies I work for. I rely on my friends and family to provide me with all the loyalty and other warm and fuzzy stuff I need to get through life. |
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| Reply from: |
emarie |
| Date: |
1/1/2007 10:54:00 PM |
| Reply: |
Didn't you say you worked as an attorney/CONSULTANT? That's pretty quick in and out (figuratively as well), but if for an actual law firm, you're dead wrong. Senior partners who recruit the best out of law school and then demoralize them rather than mentoring them not only lose superb potential partners ($$$$$, classic a business transaction), but they risk brilliant young lawyers going around telling the entire (close knit) legal community what a bunch of schmucks run Such and Such LLS. Is it the lawyer in you that makes you so condescending in your answers? I am not being snide. I'm seriously asking, because I hate how you speak to some here as if they are little whingers, grousing for no reason. Not every lawyer I know turns every conversation into a blood sport. Or maybe you are still snarky because I underscored how your response on supportive person ("ha! ha") was ridicule and simply bad form. While no generalizations may be made to fit every case, many more employers in the past operated under Humanistic Principles. Even Peter Drucker addresses this very issue and concludes that companies shoot themselves in the foot when they mishandle people. Finally, I know you call yourself a Canadian, so I don't know how much you know about the history of labor law in this country but not only have I studied it; I have worked with union organizers to help workers earn the respect and civility they deserve. Finally, whatever you are, you are no good boss. I never went to work to have a playground or friends, to get "warm and fuzzy" with people, but I never forgot that they were people. That same goes for everyone here. The arrangement you descibe for work (really people, read it!) almost sounds like a Wikpedia entry for prostitution. People at this site are being abused, you KNOW it is against the law. (continued) |
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| Reply from: |
emarie |
| Date: |
1/1/2007 10:54:00 PM |
| Reply: |
continued:
It IS a business transaction, but it occurs between PEOPLE with feelings, needs and emotions (as well as labor laws that protect them, in theory). Quit making excuses for abusers. Don't you know stress kills, and people who are happy at work produce more work. And finally, did you bother to address the issue of the disparity between CEO and worker salaries here as opposed to other Western contries. Ours is so large as to be vulgar.They're gonna have a tight squeeze getting their camels through the eye of the needle. I'm not even Christian, but I'd like to give them a worker's salary and have them live on it for six months, the average Joe, with a working wife, and three kids. Do you think they have a lot of equity with which to consider IRAs, certificates of deposit. Criminey, all they can do is barely make it from month to month. I can't help but believe they would consider the situation and more evenly divide the profits. I'm not even Christian, but this may be a good time to ask you and the CEOs "What would Jesus do?" I have to believe if he read all these heartwrenching stories of worker abuse and cruelty, he'd be in the temple on Wall Street, figuratively speaking, tossing over tables in boardrooms. Then he'd recite chapter and verse, but I am not Christian so I can't. But man-oh-man would I pay big buck to His favorite charity just to get to watch! |
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| Reply from: |
goodboss |
| Date: |
1/2/2007 9:29:00 AM |
| Reply: |
I am not an attorney, nor have I ever said in my entire life - to anyone, on this board or anywhere else, ever, ever, ever - that I am an attorney (or a lawyer or an employee of a law firm or anything like that). I have no idea whatsoever how you got this idea, perhaps you are confusing me with someone else. (Obviously someone you dislike rather intensely, given the tone of your responses to my sincere efforts to politely provide you with some useful advice. However, I must thank you for one thing - I certainly won't waste any more time trying to help you in the future!) |
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| Reply from: |
emarie |
| Date: |
1/2/2007 2:40:00 PM |
| Reply: |
Help? When have YOU ever offered ME help? I only see you being snide and condescending to people here, like the little "ha ha" jab, or calling a company going into a worker's private email account while he was using at home for private purposes "naughty." NAUGHTY?! That man lost his job for no reason and you, as an apologist for the "Boss: here dismiss him with a cavalier admission that "maybe" it was naughty. Yeah, and Mark David Chapman was just an enthusiastic music and film fan. I don't have you confused with anyone, though I may have misinterpreted your consulting role as legal. You're a putz. AND a bully. |
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| Reply from: |
goodboss |
| Date: |
1/3/2007 6:01:00 AM |
| Reply: |
I offered you help when I explained how I viewed my jobs and my bosses, thinking (erroneously I now see) that my personal work philosophy might help you get through the difficulties you are currently experiencing. Regarding the fellow whose email account was invaded by his boss, you very conveniently forgot to mention that he was asking whether this was legal or not, and since it is legal, all I did was tell him the truth. (Really, would you prefer that I lied to him?) He also asked if his termination was legal and since it was (unfortunately), I responded truthfully to that question as well. You also conveniently forgot to mention that he eventually thanked me for my responses. In addition, please allow me to remind you that these forums are for discussion and advice. If you don't like what I say, then you may either ignore me, or you may discuss it rationally with me like an adult. As is stated most clearly below, "Off-topic, abusive or obscene comments will be deleted." While you haven't gotten to the point of obscenity (yet), you certainly have strayed 'way off-topic and are demonstrating extreme abusiveness (and at least one threat of violence). Finally, while I have held myself back from saying this, I can hold back no longer: if this is how you behaved at work, it's no wonder you're unemployed now. I recommend (and I mean this seriously, I'm not being "snide" nor am I attempting to bully you) that you seek professional help soon to get an attitude change. I'm cerain that most others on this forum would agree with me on this. |
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| Reply from: |
Karra |
| Date: |
1/8/2007 11:52:00 AM |
| Reply: |
I don't agree. I think it's too easy to misinterpert what's written here to assess fairly if a person needs therapy - huge leap based on nothing more than a collection of words. This place is for venting after all and sharing experiences. Goodboss, you come across as intelligent and together, but abusive work situations do exist and unless you've been there, trapped in an intolerable workplace where daily you feel like a prisoner, it's impossible to understand what it feels like. The ranting and venting that may seem like emotional instability is a healthy reaction to an impossible situation. Depression occurs because all the energy is sucked out of you by your job and you can't imagine job hunting - there just isn't enough energy left at end of the day. Quitting is not an option for everyone, and depending on where you live or your career, a new job can take months or years to find, or may not even exist in the same field. If a year ago you were here telling me that I could be fired for job hunting (when I didn't even know if I had the energy for it) it would have made me boiling mad! |
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| Reply from: |
goodboss |
| Date: |
1/9/2007 12:07:00 PM |
| Reply: |
However, directing your anger at me would be inappropriate. I have no control whatsoever over employment laws. (And in fact I heartily disagree with many of these laws, including the ones that make it legal for an employer to fire an employee for job hunting.) When someone asks a specific legal question and I happen to know the correct answer, I believe it's my duty to tell the truth by providing an accurate answer to that question. My only other option would be to provide an incorrect answer, and that would be lying. Telling a lie to the questioner would be immoral and unethical. |
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| Reply from: |
goodboss |
| Date: |
1/9/2007 12:12:00 PM |
| Reply: |
Regarding venting on this site, yes, I agree that this is a good place to do that if that's what one needs to do. However, emarie was doing far more than venting - she was viciously and maliciously attacking me, both personally and professionally. In addition, she was trying to get everyone else participating in these forums to join her attacks. And this occurred after I tried to give her some helpful advice! I understand that she's just gone through an absoluely horrible situation at work (and I sympathise with her for that), however this does not give her an excuse to spew venom all over a complete stranger. |
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| Reply from: |
goodboss |
| Date: |
1/9/2007 12:21:00 PM |
| Reply: |
Finally, I most definitely DO know what it's like to be in a horrible work situation. About ten years ago I quit a job because I was being bullied, humiliated, and intimidated - publicly! in front of my peers and employees! it was a nightmare! I cried every night at home for weeks! - on a daily basis by three senior managers. This went on for two-three months until I quit, and then I had to undergo three months of therapy just to recover my emotional stability enough to attend job interviews. And I am currently unemployed because I had to resign from my last position after being sexually harassed at work by one of my peers, an executive director. (I am currently suing this employer.) So yes, to reiterate, I do know personally what it's like to be in a horrible work situation. As a result, I feel nothing but sympathy for those who are in similar awful situations. |
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| Reply from: |
Karra |
| Date: |
1/10/2007 11:53:00 PM |
| Reply: |
That sounds really tough. I didn't mean to imply that you were being insensitive. I guess what I was getting at is that it's not good to take things that you read here to heart. When people vent or rant or whatever, it's not a personal attack as much as a reaction to the words they're reading. They don't even know you. It's just the words that push our buttons and let's face it most of us are here because we have a lot of buttons to deal with! People react differently to abusive work situations and some of us just really need to vent to the point of attack... because in an abusive work situation you are daily attacked and almost never in a position to attack back. It takes a lot of courage and strength to sue a former employer for harassment. All the best to you, goodboss, and don't give up! |
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| Reply from: |
goodboss |
| Date: |
1/11/2007 9:15:00 AM |
| Reply: |
Thanks. It's a pretty straightforward situation and so my lawyer and I are expecting a good settlement in the near future.
Regarding how venting can include personal attacks others, I still don't think that someone in a bad situation has the moral right to attack others. It's one thing to say "my boss is a lousy person and I'm going to go on and on about just how lousy he is," and quite another to say "because my boss is a lousy person I'm going to call you (a complete stranger who just tried to give me some good advice) horrible names and threaten you with violence."
The reason I was so upset about the name-calling and threats from emarie is that I come to this forum to help people with work-related problems. I've been doing this professionally for more than 20 years and firmly believe that I have the experience and knowledge to be of at least some assistance to at least some people. However, all the time I spend trying to help is completely wasted if one of the participants starts slamming me personally and professionally. I could have just left the site altogether, but then the people asking for help wouldn't get it from me - and that's not good! |
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| Reply from: |
Karra |
| Date: |
1/14/2007 1:10:00 PM |
| Reply: |
Hi Goodboss, good points - and your advice is excellent. But I don't agree that your time here is wasted just because a participant is slamming you personally. As well as the people on here, your advice may be helping the individuals who read the forum but do not participate. The silence doesn't necessarily mean others agree with the slamming. They may be afraid if they say anything they'll be next. Much like the real world. So don't stop sharing your knowledge! |
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| Reply from: |
goodboss |
| Date: |
1/15/2007 9:03:00 AM |
| Reply: |
My concern was mainly that the slamming would cause people to doubt what I said, and if they doubted it all, why bother saying it? However you're right about people not necessarily agreeing with emarie - none of the numerous people she asked to join her in the slamming and violence against me, on this thread and many others, responded to her, either at all or in a way unfavourable to me. Thanks for the support, and now that emarie seems to have gone away (hopefully to do something productive about resolving her problems), let's and all this and go back to helping people if we can! |
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| Reply from: |
emarie |
| Date: |
1/22/2007 12:45:00 AM |
| Reply: |
I just saw THIS. I disagreeed with you strongly and yu are prety thin-skinned to then attack me and suggest I seek counseling. Because I stood up to you and expressed a different opnion? Because I suggested that some of your jokes (the "ha ha" and the statement that it may be "naughty" to go through someone's private email that they write at home) was simply not "getting" the depths of violation these people endure. I have never once read of a naughty boss here. I have read about some lawbreakers, some abusers, some mentallly unbalanced sociopathic types. Nothing has been quite "warm and fuzzy" enough to be naughty. Look at what you said about me. I asked prople's opinions of your post because I was stunned by YOUR hostility. And even after Karra has tried to smoooth things over and very heroically, I might add, try to explain why some of your comments hurt you continue. You essentially said in one of your emails that because you were upset with what I said in my email, that must be why I was fired. Don't you see how meanspirited that is? (And I was NOT fired. They didn't renew my contract because the chair didn't want someone with my credentials, and he was cleaning house. Three of us were moved out unfairly that year.) I posted before and said that was it, I'm done, and I AM done with you, goodboss. You are mean and I do not want you writing to me. You are articulate and often give very well considered and helpful advice. Sometmes you are just plain wrong about the law and THAT does concern me here. But you serve a purpose here and I think you should continue. Just leave me alone. You ARE a bully. And if you come back at me to dispute it you will have proven my point. You made comments here you had no right to make. Do not write to or about me again. |
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| Reply from: |
emarie |
| Date: |
1/27/2007 10:42:00 PM |
| Reply: |
note the date friends: He went after me viciously again, so I am not coming back. We all have had enough abuse, and don't need it here. He has successfully silenced the only other person here who knows as much law as he does (perhaps more) and comes at it from a plaintiff position, defending people against corporations. That does not make me RIGHT. That jjust predisposes me to support emplyees against abusive employers in disputes. Just as he is predisposed otherwise. There should be room for both but this guy is the one who is obsessed and stomps on my every post (look at what he did to my advice to Lonnie, which had nothing whatsoever to do with HIM). He is disturbed and mean and I will never know how any of you or how he feels abut chasing me away withhis bullying because I never intend to return here. He is the King of Trolls (and this will probably be another allusion about which he is uninformed and he will say I am using foul langauge or something and accuse me simply because he doesn't get it). Just PLEASE people, do NOT take his legal advice: for all his posturing I do not think I have seen him give one good bit of legal advice, and have often seen him just plain wrong. If you velieve you have a cause of action, investigate the possibility of a contingency fee with a labor attorney and take THAT person's advice; not someone who represents the other side, for the love of Pete! |
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