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strange goings-on

Posted by: goodboss
Date: 1/3/2007 6:48:32 AM

Just had a look at reallymad's thread and I see that it's gone all wonky. I had responded earlier to yet another one of emarie's venomous posts about me (I aked her why she was so obsessed with me) and wanted to know what she had to say in response, if anything. I also asked reallymad how his job situation was going. And now look what's happened. Weird.

Reply from:	goodboss
Date:	1/3/2007 7:18:00 AM
Reply:	Not wonky anymore...must've been a tech hiccup.

Reply from:	hadenuff
Date:	1/3/2007 1:19:00 PM
Reply:	Yeah people do get a little out of line with these things and when it is personally directed at you - yikes! you are being attacked so definitely would feel the hate and that feels weird... People seems to have different reasons for posting here - they're going through a rough situation and put their feelings out in the world anonymously...then when I myself got feedback and replies, it was just like great! People wanna express altruism by helping others. It's all warm fuzzy then :-) Political stances are coming out and clashing unfortunately. If people feel you're an "expert" with a legal background and you express it, I guess this isn't the forum necessarily always. Whether someone has a good case can be disagreed upon, and that's the whole basis of Plaintiff's vs defense lawyers and their jobs.. There are so many plaintiff's lawyers who would go forward on a case with some sense of injustice of inquity in the facts, hoping to reach a jury who will see it too and want to compensate for it, even with the law not firmly established. You can sue just to extract a settlement of course never thinking about trial. Some facts posted seem to fit into that category to me and I hope people do find a good plaintiffs' lawyer if that's what they want to do.. The above is just an OPINION and not intended as professional advise...Best to all!

Reply from:	goodboss
Date:	1/3/2007 6:19:00 PM
Reply:	Well, when someone asks a legal question in an area where I have considerable expertise (often more than many lawyers - just ask those I give seminars to!), I try to respond as fully and accurately as I can - all in the spirit of helping out. Most people are glad that I've been able to provide them with the legal info they asked for, but as you said, people post here for many different reasons, and it seems that some people here have hidden agendas that they're not always upfront about right away, and so I end up pushing some "nasty button" that I wasn't even aware of and then to my shock and horror I get flamed. Oh well, I will continue to try and help people where I can (and not always with legal info, depending on the question asked, I may be able to help in other areas as well), and ignore those few with the hidden agendas. Thanks for the supportive comments.

Reply from:	goodboss
Date:	1/4/2007 8:58:00 AM
Reply:	And you're right, being personally attacked does feel weird, especially when I can't for the life of me see why...all I did was tell emarie my own personal philosophy of work (i.e., how I personally handle life at work), thinking that she might glean something useful from it for herself, and if not, then oh well, everyone has their own way of dealing with things and my personal way certainly won't suit everyone else. And she responds by showering me with wild accusations, abuse, name-calling and threats of violence! I really don't get it. However, you're right, whatever "it" is, I'm not going to let it get to ME anymore. Thanks again, your comments have made me feel much better.

Reply from:	Karra
Date:	1/5/2007 8:53:00 PM
Reply:	Wow, so much venting. The trouble with words is they don't convey non-verbal communication, such as tone, so it's easy to misinterpret what others write. Still, I don't get the impression that you were attacking anyone, just really trying to be helpful. As far as job hunting goes I don't think you can be officially fired for that, unless it's on company time when you're supposed to be working. What you do on your personal time is your business. When using personal email accounts for business reasons, it's a good idea to keep the account for business only. How does the employer know if the account was accessed for valid work reasons or for job hunting? If it was me I sure wouldn't be able to resist taking a peak at any incoming emails with potential job offers. :)

Reply from:	goodboss
Date:	1/6/2007 9:38:00 AM
Reply:	No I most definitely was not attacking anyone! (And thanks for noticing!) I think that it goes back to what I said before, that some people have hidden agendas and when my comments don't somehow feed their hidden agendas, they attack me for it. Just as an FYI (a little education here), in the US, you can be fired for any reason whatsoever, including personal activities on personal time, unless you have a written contract of employment that states otherwise (and employee handbooks and company policy manuals are cot considered to be employment contracts). The only illegal reasons for firing people are those related to people's gender, race, disability and religion. In other words, you CAN be fired for jobhunting on personal time, but you CAN'T be fired because you're female (or Asian, or disabled, or Muslim, etc). It's pretty much the same in Canada except that if you're fired for anything other than gross misconduct (like stealing or violence), then the company firing you must pay you termination and/or severance pay. The law is a lot harsher than many people think, and this is what sometimes gets me into hot water - when I explain the law to people, they get pissed off at the law and then take it out on me...the messenger. (And what I say about the law is completely accurate, I've been doing this professionally for 20+ years now and know it backwards and forwards.)

Reply from:	goodboss
Date:	1/6/2007 10:30:00 PM
Reply:	Canadian employers are legally allowed to fire their employees for conducting job searches on their personal time. However, as I said previously, they must pay termination and/or severance pay. This kind of pay is also known as "pay in lieu of notice."

Reply from:	emarie
Date:	1/22/2007 12:27:00 AM
Reply:	Sometimes employees do need to be fired, and that is indisputable. To do so with voice mail, emails, a note slipped under a door...all of that is just gratuitous cruelty and a deliberate slap, as if to say you are not even important enough to me to bother with an exit interview. How can one human being EVER say they are not important? But read these posts!! That is what is going on. In these heartrending stories I hear here, there is a lot of grey area legally, and I think what these people are saying is that they are demoralized by working environments where people do not respect each other and actually act out their issues with others. Maybe, if you are right and I do not believe you are, there is no implicit expectation of loyalty by both parties when one starts a job, this would explain the massive cruelty and abuse we read about here. Finallly, I have not been on since my last post so I had no idea what others might have said. I asked several people I'd written to to read your comments because I thought they were unnecessarily hostile. But I recognize that by taking the devil's advocate position on some of these incidents you put yourself in a tough spot just by trying to point out another view. Maybe you shouldn't. Maybe you should respond to the needs and concerns of the WRITER and not try to explain what YOU think the bosses thought. I'm sure you think you are being helpful but at least two people here are suffering from PTSD and have told me your posts often trigger their symptoms. If you sensed hostility from me you misread my concern for the fragility of some of us and my desire to defend them. see continued

Reply from:	emarie
Date:	1/22/2007 12:29:00 AM
Reply:	I have no idea what others said or made of your posts on line, and that is of no concern to me. However, if someone threatened violence against you that is not what we want here. But my reference to the Temple scene in the New Testament of the Christian bible was simply to say that GOOD followers of the Rabbi Jesus Christ don't leave Him at the church steps but rather bring Him into work. And bosses who mistreat their employees deserve to have the second coming in their boardrooms; that I admittedly would get a kick out of this holy man reminding people of what is important by tossing over a few tables. If you believe THAT scene is violent, I could suggest a few other biblical passages that read like they came out of a Quentin Tarantino movie. I never threatened you. I have never threatened anyone in my life and I never would. I can't cotrol how you receive what I have said but I CAN clarify that neither I nor probably any other woman here has an obsession with you. see continued

Reply from:	emarie
Date:	1/22/2007 12:29:00 AM
Reply:	If I have responded to your posts on occasion it is because I know your advice is legally wrong, but this may be a factor of background and not an attempt to deceive. goodboss, we are never going to agree. I was a labor union organizer and you often try to explain the other side here. You say tomato and I say tomahto. It's not a big deal to me that we disagree, but I WAS curious about how others felt and privately learned quite a lot. I'm bored by this topic, confused about your perception of violence (unless there was some in another email...as I said, I just came back). I think it is a good idea maybe that you DO offer the other side to help people puzzle it through. I wish you would do so in a tone that suggests a good colleague listening carefully and empathizing, but gently trying to point out what they now need to do. You being devil's advocate is o.k., but DO recall you do so at a site full of people who are traumatized, past or present. May I ask that we not approach the bar and request the court's permission for rebuttal on this issue now, that we instead agree to disagree as I have done, and that you please please stop now. I intend to. Let's let it rest.

Reply from:	goodboss
Date:	1/22/2007 4:31:00 PM
Reply:	I stopped a long time ago. Yet as of today, you're still going on about it. Regarding the violence, YOU were the one who threatened ME with violence, AND you invited at least three other forum participants to join you in your violence. Regarding your claim that you feel no hostility towards me, I am absolutely astounded that you think calling me a "putz" and a "bully" (among other filthy names) is not hostile. Regarding your alleged legal expertise, please tell me where you got this "expertise" - which law schools have you trained at, and how many years have you spent training there? And how many law firms have paid you to facilitate seminars to their lawyers? And how many years have you been a paid legal consultant? (For me, the answers to these questions are four postgraduate years at two internationally accredited schools, seven, and more than 20.) Once again, your long, rambling, filthy and vicious posts are making you seem mentally ill (and I've had more than one participant tell me this, including the ones you invited to join your gang). If that's how you want people to see you, then by all means continue. However, if you want people to see you as a rational adult who's making reasonable attempts to get her life back together, well baby, I have news for you: this behaviour is NOT the way to do it. Finally, you still haven't answered my question - why on earth are you so obsessed with me?

Reply from:	emarie
Date:	1/27/2007 10:03:00 PM
Reply:	There was no threat of violence. My words had o filth. I lauded your role as devil's advicate, and cautioned that I have heard from two people who found your posts upsetting and threatening to THEM (not to me). I cheerfully agreed to disagreed and let you say tomato and I say tomahto and I believe my tone was conciliatory. I am "astounded" by the things you have said here. You do not seem to take people disagreeing with you very well but the only reason I responded after having been out of town was that you wondered what I would think. I told you in a collegial way, but I DO disagree. I'm confused. First you chastize me for mistaking your for a lawyer since you were giving legal advice and then you trot out your legal credentials above. I thought both Karra and hadenuff stated it quite well when they underscored that the outcome of any legal action is always a crap shoot (oh, and just in case of yet another linguistic misunderstanding that makes you think I am befouling cyberspace , the term crap shoot refers to gambling, just as smackdown's etymology has evolved now to mean the equivalent of saying "It's time for a Come to Jesus meetin'," which, where I come from means it's time to set things straight. (see continued)

Reply from:	emarie
Date:	1/27/2007 10:06:00 PM
Reply:	(continued, and my last words on the subject... Rumplestiltskin and stomp and yell and call out all the names he wants, but it will be for the rest of you, since I will NEVER come back here. You know, other people here besides me think you are a bully too, goodatbossing) \ Now you have called me names here, challenged my mental state and been as mean as I have seen you be to others. You are a bully. That much I will not soften. I tried to smooth it over here, but at each of the threads you have managed to make some bizarre reference to "obsession." Can't I give Lonnie advice that differs from you without you thinking it is about YOU? The answer to your question, sir, is I am dead tired of people who put on airs and act hostile just because someone with equal training and experience may hold a different point of view. That was why I tried to make the tomato/tomahto joke and why I find your NONconciliatory response here too too typical of the kind of "smackdown" you give to anyone who disagrees. I am leaving the list because I think YOU are disturbed, and I think you are NOT obsessed: you are angry and pouting because you've met someone who knows as much as you do. If you are not a member of the bar you should NOT be giving legal advice, and if you are a kindhearted person you would not be calling privacy torts "naughty." Now, have your little kingdom here all to yourself. I am tired beyond belief by you. I am SO outta here. I could find any number of bosses to abuse me because they don't like being contradicted, but I don't need to stay here and be abused by you.

Reply from:	reallymad
Date:	1/31/2007 9:37:00 AM
Reply:	Update on me: Still here! I am working from home for the time being. I got my first paycheck last week (yeah!) Goodboss was correct, I CAN be fired for jobhunting on my time. And I STILL think that makes a boss a complete sack of shit for doing that. Especially 2 weeks before Christmas. Oh, I'm soooo never going to forget that either....

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